Untidy Faith

Acts 23-24 | Ronne Rock and Josh McDonald

• Kate Boyd ⎜ Writer, Speaker, Bible Teacher, Biblical Community Coach • Season 5 • Episode 12

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My guests today are Ronne Rock and Josh McDonald.

Ronne Rock weaves themes of transformative hope and grace-filled leadership into everything she shares on page and stage.  She believes that you are God-designed to influence and impact the world right where you are, and she wants to you understand what it means to live out your purpose. Ronne is a long-road walker, a hope-warrior, a voice of honest encouragement for women who long to lead well. She travels around the world to tell stories of encouragement and hope for Orphan Outreach, and you’ll find her words about work and life balance in Joyful Life Magazine. Her latest book, One Woman Can Change the World, is available wherever books are sold. Ronne lives in the Texas Hill Country with her husband and rescue pup, Pearl. 


You’ll find Ronne at:

Instagram: https://instagram.com/ronnerock

Facebook: https://facebook.com/ronnerockwrites

Website: http://ronnerock.com

Amazon Author Page: https://bit.ly/RonneRockAuthor

Josh McDonald is a jack-of-all-creative-arts: singer, storyteller, writer, cartoonist, actor, director, and filmmaker; he's dabbled in a bit of almost everything. Currently he works for a couple Catholic parishes in Vermont while finishing up his studies for the Diaconate.

Twitter: @JoshDevinMcD

Are you disentangling your faith from the culture around you? The greatest tool in that journey for me was the Bible itself. You’ve probably noticed that here on the show we love the Bible, and we take it seriously - but not always literally, and that means that meaning can get a little complicated. But you don’t have to let that overwhelm you. I’ve put together the Big Picture Toolkit to help you understand how all of Scripture fits together in one incredible story, learn some new questions to ask to get at meaning without getting overwhelmed, and see new connections between Old and New Testaments with a special Bible Reading Plan. If you’re ready to get back to basics of your faith, the Bible is a great place to start, and the Big Picture Bible Toolkit can help. Grab yours today free at kateboyd.co/bible.


Kate Boyd - Book | Bible Studies | Coaching | Newsletter | Instagram

Kate Boyd:

You're listening to happy and holy the podcast where scripture comes to life through a small group discussion. This season, we're walking through the birth of the church in the book of Acts. And you get to be a fly on the wall to see what new things we learn with and from one another, as we engage scripture in community. I'm your host, Kate Boyd. I'm a disciple maker, writer and speaker, who is making space in the church for Christians caught in the messy middle between conservative and progressive, between leaving the church and leaving. We love Jesus, love people and work with God and each other for a better world. Welcome to the show. Are you disentangling your faith in the culture around you? The greatest tool in that journey for me was the Bible. You probably noticed that here on the show, we love the Bible. And we take it very seriously. But we don't always take it literally. And that means that meaning can get a little complicated. But all of its complexity doesn't have to overwhelm you. And that's why I put together the big picture Bible toolkit. It will help you understand how all of Scripture fits together in one incredible story will also let you learn some new questions to ask to get at meaning without getting overwhelmed. And you'll see new connections between the Old Testament and the New Testament with a special Bible reading plan. If you're ready to get back to the basics of your faith, the Bible is a great place to start. And the big picture Bible toolkit will help you do that. Grab yours today for free at Kate boyd.co/bible. Now, let's get back to X. Welcome everyone, to the show today. Today, we are getting close to the end of Acts. We're in the homestretch here. And we're talking about chapters 23 and 24. And I have some friends with me that you should know as we get started, so Josh, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself.

Josh McDonald:

Okay, um, I'm Josh, I am a Catholic in Vermont, um, working my way through the, through the preparation for the permanent diaconate which I'm getting close to the end here. I'm looking towards being ordained a deacon in October. So that's been about a five year journey for me just sort of delving into delving a lot into Scripture and also into the particulars of my particular faith as a Catholic. And we are preparing to, to engage in a deeper and more active ministry here in the Diocese of Vermont, which is actually they say, is the the least religious state in the United States. And our current Bishop sort of came in thinking of it as a challenge. Which, you know, which I think is a good a good attitude to take that. You know, that you know, we're, we're here in this state, and we'll who were our best with it. So that um, I mean, that's been my, that's been sort of my focus the last five years, is that, that journey of education and preparation for ministry. I work in a couple of church offices here in the area. So I'm pretty immersed in it all. And other than that, I do a lot of creative arts. I've I've dabbled in everything from cartooning to film and video production. And done some fun at theater. And so yeah.

Kate Boyd:

That's so exciting.

Josh McDonald:

I keep myself wait to hear your perspective. Yeah. I

Kate Boyd:

mean, it sounds like you've got a lot going on. I'm excited to hear your perspective. I I don't know you may be the first Catholic we've had on the show. So I'm, which is I don't know. I don't know what that means, but it's fun. Ronnie, how about you

Ronne Rock:

Well, let's see, I'm, well, we'll start with the personal stuff. First, I guess I'm a. I'm a wife, a mom, a friend, a GG, trusted lab to a really, really rude rescue dog named pearl. And I live in Texas. And I am a manager marketing for a global nonprofit here that works in eight countries around the world, focusing on care for the orphaned and vulnerable. I am also an author, and I have a couple of books. So if you guys want to pick them out, and whatever, and then I fell in love with Jesus fell headlong into his arms, in a nondenominational charismatic church. And now I am a very humble and content Episcopalian. So talk about going from one extreme to the other. But I have found I've helped found the Holy Spirit very alive and well. In the beautiful, the beautiful arms, the Episcopalian Church. And so my husband and I are, we're both there now. And we, that's a whole other story for a whole other day is how we got along that road. But it's a it's a really precious place to be and I love finding Jesus in Orthodoxy, Allah finding Jesus in the evangelical arms of the church, He is everywhere to be found, if we just allow His presence to be made known. And so that's all I'll say about that. But that's me.

Kate Boyd:

Yay. Yeah, well, I'm excited to dig in to chapters 23, and 24. Because we've had a lot of action. And I feel like things sort of start to slow down here at the end of the book, or at least the pace, right gets a little bit slower. We're seeing drawn out episodes instead of like, quick chop, chop chop, which we see a little bit up today. So before we start talking about it, Josh, why don't you recap chapter 23. For us,

Josh McDonald:

hey, chapter 23. Finds Paul sort of in the middle of his being brought before the Sanhedrin where he is called to give an account of himself. And he starts off, says he notices that the the council is made up of Pharisees and Sadducees. And so he identifies himself as a Pharisee. And says that he's on trial for the hope of the resurrection of the dead. He kind of jumps right into the the sort of wedge issue there in the council. Where the Sadducees obviously don't believe in the resurrection of the dead. And the Pharisees kind of hear that and say, Okay, we think this guy is okay. And so it says the the council actually descends into violence. So that's an interesting point. And so Paul was sort of taken away and taken into to a sort of protective custody so that he doesn't get injured in the the violence that breaks out. After that, we have a group of about 4040 Jews who take an oath to eat or drink nothing until they have killed Paul. And Paul's nephew, hears about this conspiracy. He goes to some of the officials and tells them about it and says that Paul should be Spirited Away to the to the Roman Council. And so they do that. The, in this story of the conspirators who who have taken an oath to not eat or drink anything until they've killed Paul, that's sort of I feel like that's kind of a dangling narrative thread there that it's never quite resolved

Kate Boyd:

and never wrapped That was one thing I noticed. I was like, Gosh, I really want to know what happened to those people.

Josh McDonald:

Yeah. So in any case so, Paul, and now because Paul also identifies himself as a Roman citizen, he's brought before the the Roman Council and think that's yeah, they, they bring him under armed guard in the middle of the night from his prison, to the Roman Council. To sort of frustrate the, the plans of the conspirators who, who have planned to kill him.

Kate Boyd:

Yeah. Yeah, it's really interesting to me how all these people because even we get, I don't know, later on in the book, we see all of these people that you wouldn't think would be protecting Paul, like protecting him. And so that's always a really interesting thing that pops up for me. Okay, but let's start. Yeah, before the Sanhedrin. Ronnie, what, what sort of like jumped out at you in the Sanhedrin episode,

Ronne Rock:

just we will just think about the Sanhedrin overall, first of all, thinking about what happens in our high courts, and even in our legislative branch and things and how diverse people can be. But what I really think about, and this is a bit of a rabbit trail is the fact of what it took to be a member of Sanhedrin is that you could not be too young, but you also couldn't be too old, your background had to be without blemish, and all of those blemishes could not be they it was there couldn't be adultery in your family couldn't be anything like that, that might tarnish the Sanhedrin family name, if you would. You also, though, could not be, for example, blind, you couldn't have a hearing impairment, there could not be anything about you personally, that would be deceived, deceived, perceived as less than or inadequate or in need. And I just that, to think that everything that was wrapped around being on that council was all about the externals, and what somebody might perceive that counsel to be, instead of it being at all about the inner workings of the heart, or the character qualities of that person. Which also I sit and think about today, and how often, we lay out the case of a person's actions, that when we start talking about character, and just how they are as a person. And everybody's like, Odin, I know we don't want to go that far. We really don't want to go that part. And that I love how Paul and his account to do all of them kind of lays that all to waste because he he acknowledges who they are. He acknowledges where he is in their culture, and how he fits into culture. And then like goes, Yeah, let's talk about your heart. Yeah, let's talk about the hope of the gospel. Let's talk about something that's far more meaningful. And it drives them crazy, because it becomes this indictment on who they are. Not from a the come from a good family. Are you the right age, all those things, but let's talk about your heart.

Kate Boyd:

It's funny, one of the commentaries I was reading mentioned, like maybe Paul didn't wreck because it says he didn't recognize the high priests or he spoke and they're like, don't you know, you can't talk about that to the high priests that way. It's like, Oh, my bad. I didn't realize it was the high priest. And it one of the commentaries sort of like made this offhand remark. Like, maybe he didn't recognize that he was the high priest because he wasn't acting like the high priest like that. So it sort of goes to that like character thing, which is not a dimension that I had ever really thought I just thought maybe Paul wasn't around and there was a new high priest and he didn't know them. But this can't have been all that long behind, you know, when he was there. So whoever the high priest is was probably on the Sanhedrin when Paul was in Jerusalem, persecuting people, so there probably has to be another reason why he doesn't recognize them. And so I just thought that comment was so interesting, especially in light of what you were just talking about, you know, the externals versus the internals. And then how he just sort of like go straight to he just sort of like, I don't know, distracts them, you know, and they end up in their own thing. Josh, what did you see in this?

Josh McDonald:

Um, it's interesting. What, what Ronnie was just talking about, I was thinking that, you know, Paul's very first statement in this chapter as he speaks about my conscience, up to this point in my life is clear. And, you know, so he, you know, he really does. He opens with the internal. Yeah, yeah. Speaking that, and then, afterwards, he sort of goes on to this family history as a Pharisee. That's an interesting.

Kate Boyd:

Yeah, I mean, he's like, I really have, I have the same street cred guys like you. Which is, which is like a very interesting tactic when you're, you know, on trial, more or less before them. He's like, actually, we're the same you and me. So think, yeah, as you start to

Ronne Rock:

chat, guys, it's like yours. Yeah.

Josh McDonald:

I think, I think to you, I was reading a commentary on the same line about Barry says, Oh, I didn't realize you were the high priest. You know, one commentary that I read, suggested that, you know, maybe, maybe Paul knew full well, that this was the high priest, he was just sort of, he was sort of twisting that, that irony, they're saying, Well, you're not acting like a High Priest. So I didn't realize you were actually a High Priest. You know, knowing that he was, but but kind of making the point that, you know, it's something more than just a title that, that you get slapped on you like that.

Kate Boyd:

Right? I mean, there are responsibilities, not just within this Council or the things, but there are traits, essentially, that I would imagine you're expected to uphold and have, and so that he either can't recognize or saying that he doesn't recognize those in this person is, I mean, it's a very, like, it's a very antagonistic way to start this whole encounter, which isn't all that weird for Paul, but considering his deference in some of the other spaces and places where he is on trial. This is a very different sort of, like, approach. Whereas later on, when we're talking about his encounters, he's talking about, you know, he's sort of playing by the rules. And here, he sort of just throws out the rulebook. And it's like, look, I'm one of you, basically, you're not doing your thing. And this is really why I'm here.

Josh McDonald:

I think is interesting to looking at it. Throughout the Gospels, we have the, the Pharisees as kind of the antagonists of, of Jesus, you know, they're, they're always challenging him. They're in now, here, you know, Paul kind of says, Well, you know, I'm a Pharisee, just like even okay, this guy's okay. Yeah, interesting, a lot. Turn around.

Kate Boyd:

Yeah, I finally does that a lot. He sort of puts Paul's actions to be similar to Jesus's or similar to Peters, because the first part of the book is like Peter, leading all of that. And then Paul sort of takes over in the story. And there's a lot of mirroring that happens that Luke is doing to sort of like, establish Paul's authority, I think as he goes out into his ministry, to be on the same footing as the Jerusalem people's ministry, which is a really striking move considering the time Yeah, yeah. So chaos ensues because Paul's like, I know the thing that we can change. Or, and I, I guess I wonder what he was thinking like, did he just know that there was no way he was going? To be able to talk to these people or convince them or do whatever. And so he's like, Well, let's just sort of distract them with his own fight. Like, part of me wonders why he even did this instead of what he normally would have done, which is defend themselves.

Josh McDonald:

One of the one of the commentaries I was reading suggested that, you know, throughout this, Paul was sort of trying to establish this continuity, that, you know, that he, you know, he is a Jew, he is a Pharisee, that hasn't changed, you know, now that he's a Christian that, you know, and, and by identifying himself with the Pharisees, and this hope for the resurrection of the dead, you know, he's, he's, he's maintaining that sort of through line of, you know, that this is consistent with, you know, my lifelong faith as a Jew as a Pharisee. You know, that hasn't changed, I'm still, I'm still one of you guys.

Kate Boyd:

Now, that's a good point. And then, you know, he gets taken out of there for his safety. And then the Lord stood near him and told him, like, don't worry about it, you're going to Rome. Which is in like, I wish, I wish the Lord would tell me such that, like, give me such clarity as to what my life is doing. But But I do think like, that has to be at least a little bit. I'm trying to think of the word sintering, or grounding, considering. I mean, if we look at the next few chapters, there's like shipwrecks and delays and prison imprisonment and like a lot of different things. And so for him to sort of have that promise to hold on to at least sort of brings like some clarity, I think in the moments and, and like it says, Keep up your courage, right. So brings that courage and that clarity in that conviction to keep pushing forward.

Ronne Rock:

One thing that I appreciate is the candor of the, what the Lord spoke to Paul, and even about that ship, basically, you know, I love you so much. It's all gonna go to hell in a handbasket. But trust me on this, it was it. It's all sweetness and light, and everything else is gonna be horrible for other people, that you, my dear love, are just gonna look like a fairy. It is not like that at all it is, dude, it's getting hard. And that ship is going to crash and things that you would say, oh, my gosh, I don't know if I really want to know that. But yet the intimacy with which the Lord knew Paul's heart and knew that that's what Paul needed to know, in order to continue to persevere, and to be resilient. And that section, and it's just this little tiny section, right? That's the thing about Scripture. It's like, sometimes it's one sentence that we are privy to, that in it is an entire story in itself. But that one little section of scripture remind you of just how tenderly the Lord's care is for us, is that he is right there. And there are times that he is gonna say, No, we're gonna go to hell in a handbasket right now. Just just telling you trust, keep holding, keep leaning in.

Kate Boyd:

Well, and I think it says a lot about Paul to that. I mean, if if we've seen up to this point, and then even if you look through the epistles of Paul, you know, that suffering it, he's not stranger to it. And he's not afraid of it. In fact, he tells everyone to prepare, because that's part of the lot of following Jesus. And so, I mean, if God were to say things to me, now, I would almost like need them to tell me there'd be suffering, you know, so that I, maybe I would probably expect it anyway. But so that I would be aware that that means, like, that's still part of the plan. Because I've, I feel like I've been so desensitized to some of that, because of, you know, my where I am in the world. And so I think that's really interesting that he's just like, keep courage, you're going to go to Rome. But he didn't explicitly be like, and there's going to be all this stuff and you'll just have to keep going it he just sort of like knew right that Paul was already he had been expected. I mean, he's already in prison. So that's pretty bad in and of itself. Prison is really horrific in in this time and place, and so on. Yeah, I think that's really interesting. And so as that's happening, um, there's a plot, click Hill, Paul, that arises, which is, yeah, these people are really interesting characters to me. Because like you said, they don't, you, you really never hear about these people again and the rest of the book, so we just know that. And it even says, until they know that they have killed him as though they have to do it. And so I just sort of wonders happen.

Josh McDonald:

That was that was my reading of it is that, you know, it's not just, yeah, we will eat or drink nothing until Paul is dead. It's, you know, they, they need to be sort of the active agents of Paul's death. I Yeah. I've said when I was reading this, it, it kind of it might be because, you know, when I started reading this, I was also studying Mark's gospel, so So I immediately have of Harrods. Yeah, oh, oath. to the, to the daughter of Erodium when he said, I will, you know, ask anything you want and I will give it to you, whatever it is, even if it's half my kingdom. And she says, Okay, bring me the head of John the Baptist on on a platter. It got me thinking of mostly of what sort of advised and you know, bad Oh, the people that they later say, Oh, I shouldn't have done that. Yeah, yeah. The more striking one, of course is in Judges chapter 11. Um, where I can never remember the guy's name? Said his legs Zacchaeus. But not quite. You find that? Judges chapter 11. I was completely wrong. It's not like Zacchaeus at all. It's Jeff. Yeah. Jeff Jephthah. where Jeff makes an oath, of course to sacrifice. If he's victorious in this battle, he will, he will sacrifice to God, whatever, first greets him on his homecoming. And of course, it ends up being the daughter. And what I find most most striking about that is that there is no that there's there's never any indication of, well, maybe I can get out of this oath somehow. Yeah, I mean, yeah, there's no there's no Isaac moment where the angel comes and says, Okay, you know, that. Yeah, it's, it's, we're touched that you were willing to go this far, but he was a ram, the sacrifice dead. So, yeah, so I mean, it. You know, just, I mean, I think just that passage gets me thinking, you know, taking an oath, like, that is not a thing to be taken lightly. So, you know, when you have these 4040 man acts who say, you know, we pledge an oath that we will not take food or water until we've killed well, then, you know, Paul goes on living for several more years after, it's like, right. does there come a point where they, they say, Okay, this didn't work out quite the way we thought or do they? Do they hold themselves to that oath for the rest of their lives until they, I guess.

Kate Boyd:

Don't make me wonder. I guess that's something to look up in the Old Testament. Like, what happens if you break an oath like that? Going back to some of your Old Testament law? Yeah, I mean, it's like you were saying, if you go if you trace back, you know, to judges and all that stuff, you're seeing that oaths are a very serious thing and they all expect to complete them one way or another, right? And so the fact that they did this, and it was very rash, and it was clearly not motivated or prompted by God, it's from their own passions, you sort of get this. I mean, that is a lesson, right? Like, be careful, not just the things that we say but, you know, to when we're getting caught up in things to be really careful of do or say or promise. I mean, that's a big deal.

Josh McDonald:

Yeah, I think the final sort of, you know, as I'm considered as I'm pondering this, you know, the final piece that sort of came out of this to me, is, in Matthew's Gospel in the Sermon on the Mount, when Jesus actually says, you know, do not, you know, you've heard it said that, do not break your oath. To me, yeah. Please, find the wording on that. He says, Do not break your oath, but good on all you square, but what I say is do not swear at all let your let let your yes mean. Yes. And your No, me? No. Anything more than that is from the evil one. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that, you know, that. Maybe that's sort of the final cap on this that, that Jesus has, you know, don't, don't try to be big and dramatic about stuff like that, you know, don't don't commit yourselves rationally, to things that you might regret later on. Just, you know, just sort of be honest in the moment. And, um, and yeah, I mean, I wonder if I'm, you know, in some ways, an oath like, that might be a way of humanity, almost trying to control God. You know, a person making an oath like that is sort of trying to do for force God into a cornered to say, Okay, God, this is what I want. And I'm going to try and manipulate manipulate you into one with this. And sometimes God just says, No, I'm not gonna do that. Yeah, I don't

Kate Boyd:

actually. Play by luck.

Josh McDonald:

Yeah, and maybe that's what what Jesus is getting at in the Sermon on the Mount here when when he says, there's no, yeah. If you if you mean, yes, say yes. If you mean no, say No, don't. Don't make a big production out of it.

Kate Boyd:

Yeah. Ronnie, what popped up for you in the plot to kill Paul?

Ronne Rock:

Oh, I just, I guess, being a parent. And now a grandparent. All I can think about are those gross exaggerations, that kids but kids and teenagers, and some adults, we make when we're like, oh, never do this, again, you will never understand we make these incredibly bold statements. And I can remember the whole thing like you'd go to a concert and you'd see somebody that you love and Nike reach out and attach your hand or wash my hand to get you make these bold claims that somehow you have, right that your life is so different, or you have such control, that kind of stuff. And that's when those big, I'm never going to do this again and never going to do that again until this happens. And it is like we are trying to negotiate with God or trying to negotiate to show our power with everyone else, right? Yeah, I'm gonna manipulate those around us to come to agreement with us for as a kid a lot of times we're trying to manipulate our parents, we may not even realize that we're trying to manipulate them to get our way. Yeah, we are right. And so that's when I read that all I think about is like Man, they must have been like teenagers, or like younger and I'm not insulting teenagers or anything in that because kids are really wise but at the same time, emotionally, it feels like an inquiry. audibly immature and petulant thing to say, as if they actually ultimately had any power. But they it's like they make this big bold statement that somehow they are going to be able to manipulate the circumstances around them to then bear out, I guarantee you, none of them wanted to die. Wanted to. Do you think any of them wanted to actually do the dirty work killing him? Probably not either,

Kate Boyd:

that they wait, but they wanted the credit, and they

Ronne Rock:

wanted it to show up, check it out happened. I have power. And then they also wanted the problem to be dealt with. Yeah. So that's again, that's really think about is that petulant, gross exaggeration, that we live out in our days. Today, right? We make bold statements. We hear politicians make bold statements, sweeping statements that you're like, reality bears out that dude, you don't have that much power. I'm sorry, ma'am. But you don't have that much control. And but man, we're quick to grossly exaggerate things that we want to be fixed or we want to be changed, or we want somebody else to fix on our behalf.

Josh McDonald:

Yeah, yeah. I was thinking when you mentioned. Yeah, it seems like they they might have been teenagers was thinking, yeah, they don't, they wouldn't have to be teenagers just yeah. He said, just a group of men with strong religious conviction can sometimes have the maturity level of teenagers.

Ronne Rock:

Not insulting teenagers, I have learned a tremendous amount. I'm a woman of a certain age, and I continue to learn, and people far younger than me, and I hope I do until the day I breathe my last breath. Yeah. And think about that emotional maturity. Right. That reason, the reason that we lose, like we shoved to the side, when we allow emotions to take over?

Josh McDonald:

Yeah, yeah. I think yeah, there may be a sort of almost a groupthink dynamic in play, like literally no way, you know, when you've got Yeah, and I mean, the, the passage there in Acts, it actually gives the number of 40 people or who made this, this pledge and yeah, I think when you get a lot of, you get many people together with a, with a religious fervor. Sometimes, sometimes it can mean sometimes it can be a wonderful thing. Sometimes it can, you know, can be a great sort of spiritual awakening. And sometimes it can, you know, go to the sort of lowest common denominator where everyone where everyone goes to that. That sort of immature sense of immature idea of, you know, we can do anything.

Ronne Rock:

We have never in any of our lives, ever seen anything in any point in time, where mob mentality has taken over a person's good reason, and judgment.

Kate Boyd:

doesn't happen anymore. We're beyond that now. Yeah.

Ronne Rock:

sarcastic, right. But we need that mob mentality. And then you, you know, we're seeing it now play out in stories about the past year where folks are saying, I don't know what got into me. I don't know, I would have never acted. I would have never acted that way. I don't know why I did it. I just got caught up. Yeah, in a moment. And we again, thinking about with kids and stuff, and little kids, and they're like, I don't know why I did it. They were just doing it. And so I just found myself doing it. And man we can, we can either rise or we can plummet.

Josh McDonald:

Something interesting. That really interesting. I mentioned earlier I was I was studying Mark's gospel at the same time that I started reading this and something that that came out of that study of Mark's gospel that I had never noticed before. But you know, Mark really sort of built his gospel around this idea of, you know, collectively The groups that Jesus speaks to never quite grasp what, what he's saying. They don't understand they. But, you know, it's always sort of, you know, an individual within that group, you know, someone within the group will kind of catch on and say, Okay, I understand what's going on here. And then that's, it's from the individuals that, you know, that. Yeah, that the gospel continues to be proclaimed, and, you know, individuals within the group can, can sort of raise the level of, you know, the spiritual level. Um, but, yeah, so, you know, the group mentality sort of keeps people in darkness. And it's individuals within it within that group who can sort of raise consciousness into the light?

Kate Boyd:

Yeah, I mean, that's the other. I mean, you do see a lot of like, mob mentality in Mark as well. Like, there's a lot of moments. So we did mark for the first season for last season of this podcast, and we talked a lot about, you know, getting caught up in mob mentality, especially towards the end, with the trials and everyone canting and just how fickle all of that can be, like you said, with a person coming and standing up against that. And so we sort of see that here with, you know, Paul's nephew is like, Oh, this isn't good. Let me go tell someone. And so he goes and tells, and they're like, Okay, don't tell anybody about this. And then they make plans to move Paul further on his journey. And so this Tribune that he gets, that he tells, then, it's like, Okay, it's time to ship Paul off to Felix. So we see, you know, the letter that he wrote, and then starting to travel toward Felix, the governor, anything from like that letter and the start of that journey that you notice, Ronnie,

Ronne Rock:

um, there's an overarching, there's just an overarching theme in the letter and in Paul's nephew, and everything. And I don't know, when we get to the part of the letter in the moving to sensory and stuff, I get super excited, because then you get to x 24. And what's happening there. But um, I love that we hear about Paul's nephew. That, that we are reminded of the humaneness of Paul. And he has I think sometimes scripture just overall, because we enter into pieces of stories that rarely have a defined beginning and a really defined ending, we enter into these vignettes of stories, and that we don't get to sit down and have long conversations with people to find out more about their character more about your personality, more about how they were raised all that. It's very easy sometimes for us to forget the flesh and bone that was wrapped around every single one of those stories. And so, even though it's a real small moment, where Paul's nephew gets involved, all of a sudden you're reminded them that oh, yeah, Paul had a family and that family. And then if you start really investigating, you're like, Okay, wait, if he was a member of that family, and he was also a Roman, but he was also a member of the Sanhedrin and he was also a Pharisee then that would indicate what is mom's heritage in his dad's heritage in fact that he had he and we find out he had a sister, right so all of a sudden, this person that if you read the Epistles Paul's writing style overall is it's a little more prescriptive than James or Peter you can tell they're calling and they're the way the the ministries that are wrapped up in them and is he you know, is Paul's a big exhort or he is a man he just he lays it out and then you look at Peter and Peter's like calm and use for like Peters kind of like hugging everybody all the time. And, um, but sometimes it can feel a little prescriptive. And so therefore it sometimes and has been perceived as being cut and dry. Here's the law. And you forget that there is this human that wrote this that is rich and meaningful. And I immediately when I think that when you start to wrap humanity or Around the stories of Scripture, one of the biggest things for me that happened was the story of the Samaritan woman because I had been told that the story is about, about Jesus setting her straight and telling her I am the way I'm the living water. You don't need the water. It's all about me. And a woman finger wagging. Oh, I know your story. Woman You are Whoa, you get your pants on, you always go on from deep blue. I mean, and that's really crass. That she is painted as this unfaithful, can't keep her act together, doesn't know how to establish relationship human being that nobody even wanted. So that's why she had to go out at night because all the other women were like, get away from these. You. You're horrible. Yeah, is the story that is painted? When you start to look at her and you realize that oh, my gosh, she was considered property. She was not eligible to divorce. Yeah. And yet she kept hanging in there through five relationships. And we don't know, did they die? Did they dump her? We have no clue. But she had for some reason been passed. Maybe she was passed from one guy to his brother to another brother, we don't know. And after five of that experience, do you think I'd want to marry somebody up? Probably not? I'd be if I was asked a lot. So when you when you look at that you also realize that she knows scripture. She's not illiterate. She knows enough, Jesus Samaritan, but they were religious people. They just had a different perspective. And so yeah, when when I learned that Jesus's tone changed in Scripture, he was no longer finger wagging. He was this incredibly, beautifully empathetic soul that went out of his way to remind her how greatly she was loved. And then he changes his plans and stays with her for two days, because she's preaching the gospel. And really, she had enough respect in the community, that the men and women of that community would listen to her. And so again, it's the wrapping humanity. So when I think about that gives me permission to start wrapping flesh and bone around Paul, not as this guy that just walks roads and reaches from prison, that this man that had a mom and a dad and a sister.

Kate Boyd:

Yeah, I mean, and I think too, we forget, like when we do read the epistles of Paul, and we're reading, like the prescriptive stuff, that he had a relationship with each of these churches, you know, he helped establish them. And he knew the leaders and he knew the people and he knew the tendencies and he'd heard about the problem. So he wrote because he wanted to change, like, he wanted to remind them

Ronne Rock:

that he was writing a letter to them. We we are, we're the blessed and fortunate ones that we actually get to read the letter that he wrote to somebody else. And yeah, on it, right. He didn't write or you didn't know, dear Kate. It was a friend's in Ephesus. We need to talk it was beautiful, that it was very personal. And

Kate Boyd:

and so sometimes we do sort of yet divorced that personality from the text because it's we're just we're not there. We're so far away from it. But you're right. It is all very wrapped up together. And Josh, anything from you on the on the road to sensory before we move on to 24?

Josh McDonald:

There really No, I definitely like the what Ronnie was saying about sort of looking at the the humanity of these characters. And yeah, I was reading something that suggested that, you know, Paul's nephew may have been a may have been part of like a religious zealot movement or something like that. And that's how he found out about the the plot will press place. But yeah, no, I don't really have anything to add.

Kate Boyd:

No worries. We'll move on. Okay, Ronnie, chapter 24. Why don't you recap for us?

Ronne Rock:

All right. Well, in this chapter, the many trials of Paul continue. So yeah. Before the Jews and he's been before the Romans. He's been before the Sanhedrin. They have now shipped him off to sesor Riya and now and a knife is this high priest and his crew get involved. And Anna NYAS brings what he thinks is a secret weapon with him, which is an attorney named Julius. And so to Julius, he's brilliant, I can, if I think about modern day trials, you look and you're like, Oh, I get where you guys got your ideas about opening arguments, because his opening argument is incredible. He, he works the room. He honors those who sit in positions of power, he affirms their ability to make these wise and prudent decisions. And then he calls Paul a disease. And he doesn't just say that he is like, a jerk or being foolish. He likens him to a disease to culture, and a verse from his reign leader and an agitator and the subversive rebel. And so now, Paul is face to face with Felix, who is the governor of South Korea, who himself, there's a whole story that we could talk about. I mentioned earlier, this whole thing, this unlikely series of events where Felix was actually a slave, who wasn't just set free, but was then like, pushed upward and upward and elevated to this position of power as governor. And scripture says that Felix is not unfamiliar with the teachings of Jesus. And so he listens intently. And Paul shares just his account, at this point, Paul's like, yeah, let me address that. And he shares his account of his movement about the region, and His purpose for every step. And it just like before, with what Josh shared, he just clearly continues to remind them, that he's in it for the gospel of hope. He is doing nothing outside of sharing hope with people. And so Paul doesn't shy away from the opposite accusations. He even suggests that Felix and and and is in the dudes in the room. Bring in the accusers because some of what is being shared is like stories that have been passed. And it's not somebody directly accusing it's they Oh, yeah, we heard in this group that you're doing this, we were going this brick, you're doing this, and Paul's like, bring him in, let's talk. Let's have a real meaningful conversation instead of just telling me what other folks have said, let's bring them in. Now, Felix chooses not to make a judgment call. And so he places Paul under arrest. But it's a different kind of arrest. This time, it's a house arrest. And it even gives Paul liberty to have folks over for visits. And for two years, two years, like, oh, continue to have these conversations. They continue to meet. Felix continues to ask questions, Paul continues to share. They listen to accusations about us and what others are saying. Paul continues to point to the way of Jesus. And he hopes that Paul might slip him a little money. So then again, setting free, which, yeah, whole other thing, you're like, okay, so Felix, would you really believe Paul, but you're so terrified, possibly, of what others would think, or what culture might say? If you said in Crete, because he seems to have this incredibly intense obligation to do what others want him to do instead of maybe perhaps what he knows is right in his heart. And so Felix continues not to make any decision at all. And yeah, all the while Paul is in this house prison inviting folks over where he can continue to have meaningful conversations pray for folks continue to share the gospel. And that's where we end is Felix basically passing power on to the next to the next person

Kate Boyd:

Yeah, easier problem now Festus into sort of this like long holding pattern he's out bro. Yeah. Okay, so let's start off with So Paul now comes before Felix assessor Ria, and we've got a turd TELUS talking about him. Josh, what did you see inter tell us is part of this whole ordeal

Josh McDonald:

yeah it as, as Ronnie was saying earlier it is it is reminisce reminiscent or? Or perhaps? Yeah. Since it came before it it sort of prefigures Yeah. Now the fiery ordinations that you know that we see in you know, in courtroom dramas and stuff but yeah. Just, you know, the way he in some ways, it's a lot like, I think a lot of modern politics to where you have this very fiery language about how, you know, this, this man, his movement is a pestilence on our society. It's, you know, he's, you know, he's going to bring, bring down everything and and, you know, we have to we have to nip this in the bud, or it's going to be the end of society as we know it.

Kate Boyd:

Yeah, and they don't get a lot of evidence about it. He's just sort of like, take my word for it. It's bad.

Ronne Rock:

You should. People are saying, oh, yeah, yeah.

Josh McDonald:

Yeah, and then. And there's a line after that. We're just as the Jews also joined in the charge by thirsting that all this was true. I mean, yeah. It's kind of you know, getting back into that sort of groupthink idea of, you know, everyone. You've got the the fiery order here and everyone else. Brenda standing around him. Yep. Yep. What he said.

Kate Boyd:

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think it's interesting to like, again, this sort of mirrors Jesus, right, because we see, they really, the Jews brought him up, because they thought they accused him of like desecrating the temple, right. And so he's like, I didn't do that, because I was there to worship. So that's what you should know. And then, but over here, in front of Felix, they're like, he's an agitator, which is essentially charging sedition right there. Like he's trying to overthrow things. He's like a traitor to the Roman Empire, and you need to pay attention. And so again, like, just like before, Herod right there, like he says, he's king of the Jews, don't you want, like pay attention, this is bad. And so there's a lot of mirroring of that going on, even though they have no evidence of this, which is why they bring up such a persuasive person in because they don't actually have any evidence. And so I was like reading, because that's what they were talking about. That assertions without evidence were common and stuff like that. And so the idea was to do quantity over quality, and then kind of rely on your social status to push your charges forward. And even. I mean, we also know that Felix is corrupt, because he's like waiting on bribes. And he's trying to like, make people happy. And so even the praise that they give him, says, you know, that they're even, they're willing to do whatever it takes to get through this. And I think that is just so interesting how they keep sort of like changing how they change the charges and move the goalposts based on who they're talking to. And which really just goes to show that they're willing to like it doesn't matter how it happens. They just want it to happen. Which feels a little bit familiar whenever you when you go back to like Mark, right, and you're looking at the trials that Jesus spaces between the Sanhedrin and the Roman authority. There's a lot of parallels there. Ronnie, what did you see with tortilis?

Ronne Rock:

well beyond just that, you know what what in it he's an incredible wordsmith. If if the translation what we are translated to read is anything close to what he was doing incredible wordsmith, right. But again, the lack of legitimate evidence, which I then think is so curious, because then you look and Paul is actually turning the tables on it. He's teaching him how to be a good attorney. He's actually going quietly if you if you really want to be a good attorney, kind of need to have real evidence. And this is how you would bring in the accusers, and then we there would be like, you know, questions and cross exam. This is how we soured work. So, you might want to bring in the actual accusers that may have legitimate what they believe is legitimate evidence, instead of what you're sharing is hearsay, which may or may not stand up in a court of law at all. So, um, but I think, due to that point, what we do so often, we humans will be, well, here, there may be one legitimate point in something. And then we will look for an just an amazing volume of illegitimate, unrelated things to bolster a tiny, legitimate argument. Yeah, right. Going back to that emotional immaturity, mob mentality groupthink, the gross exaggeration is like, okay, here may be your complaint. Let's just talk about your complaint. Let's not talk about your complaint. Plus, and here's my other thing, and you never and we always, you know, yeah. Okay, here's the complaint. But let me tell you, because of my tiny complaint, Paul has never been a good person, he is always been horrible. And you're like, okay, it was, Are you sharing anything is actually relevant or meaningful, that a true conversation could happen, that a real decision could ever be made?

Kate Boyd:

Yeah. And, and, you know, as we transition into Paul's defense, like, he, he, like you said, calls them out on that. He's like, they don't I, I'll tell you exactly what happened. I wasn't stirring up anything. I wasn't doing anything. They actually brought me here because of this. And then, which is interesting, because then he, you know, talks about the gospel a little bit, and he's like, this is actually why I'm here. And even in my defense, I'm going to take this and I'm going to use this opportunity. And here we are. So he really, again, puts the focus less on his crime, right and more on the corruption of what brought him here to this place, which is such an interesting move when you know that the person in front of you is also a corrupt person, and which is very fascinating to me, Josh, what did you notice impulse defense?

Josh McDonald:

Um, well, it sort of goes back to his earlier defense where he's just once again, trying to present himself as it was just a good upstanding Jewish man who, you know, who's practicing his religion, and just happens to have sort of added this, this belief in Christ on to that, you know, but with this consistent through line of, you know, this is I'm just doing like, I've always been doing Yeah. And I'm, you know, I'm just, just like, you know, 100 other Jewish men in this community who are just trying to worship my god in in the way that you know, it has been prescribed. And while these people are getting freaked out at it now he's, yeah, I think yeah. And after Julius has been building up this very heavily fear based accusation of you know, Paul just sort of calmly brings it down to a you know, to a more sort of what we say normal sort of normality. Yeah, there's really nothing going on here. Got it.

Kate Boyd:

Yeah, And, and so then Felix decides not to decide anything, and he just sort of like, Let's hang out. But he still hangs out with Paul a little bit. So in this last little bit, I'm Ronnie, what did you Was there anything that sort of jumped out at you at like, the last bit of when Paul's in custody and his relationship with Felix, or even just him hanging out and what's happening

Ronne Rock:

more than anything, I want to know what they talked about for two years. Because if what Scripture says is real, which I believe it is, and that the word of the Lord, right, the gospel truth, the hope, redemption, that those things do not come back void, that when we live out that life in front of someone else, when we share that hope with others, it doesn't come back void. So I want to know what happened to Felix after he retired, whatever, you know, that's my thing is like, I want to know, because he would have been wrestling personally, with every one of those conversations. In wrestling, I mean, the year, but if it would not have been something that he could have compartmentalized and said, Okay, that's fine. Also, your wife, and she was hearing what was going on? And so you just wonder what was going on in the conversations in your home?

Kate Boyd:

Yeah, I mean, you get the sense that Paul made them very uncomfortable, because he was like, we talked about justice, self control, and the coming judgment, and Felix became frightened. And it was like, I'll send for you whenever I want to talk to you again.

Ronne Rock:

But then he kept sending, sending, they kept talking for two years. And there's so much that can come out of that, which I'll address later about the whole idea of like, folks, sometimes we go, oh, wait, that's a rabbit trail. And you're like, Oh, can we talk about a divine person then? Because I think I, I think about what would have happened in Felix's heart, I think about the transition, the transformation that had already taken place in Paul, in a relatively relatively short period of time, in his relationship in Christ and how it impacted him. Because if you watch Paul, both in how he's talking in to Felix, in front of the council, and then also those ongoing conversations, that attitude and heart is so like Christ. He's not stressed about it. He's like, let's talk Christ. You think about it, when he was in front of Anna nice, the same guy, which then makes me go, what was in a nice thing? That was he going off same song, second verse, that the character of Paul was, was changing and evolving, and becoming more like Christ, there was his calling, his ability to respond back, his ability to point everything to true north, in the midst of accusations, is such a beautiful reflection of how his character was being transformed. Because you do look at at the at the what was happening and what happened with Christ in the court system. And then what happened with Paul on the court system? And the outcomes were not too much. I mean, yeah, they did not go well for either one of them actually, physically, you know, right.

Kate Boyd:

Eventually,

Ronne Rock:

I'm in yet you see, this beautiful expression of Paul in front of the same folks in front of folks accusing Him and His nature, and his character, reflecting the love of his savior, in the midst of it all, and when you look and how our how we take on Christ, right? How, like, in Colossians, in the message is talks about putting on love, like our wardrobe, and stuff. And I'm like, you see that in Paul, in the midst of these accusations? He's not he's not feeling the need necessarily to defend himself, but just to speak truth, and to ask that real truth be spoken by others. And I don't know there's just something about that. That is so powerful and beautiful and reaffirming to us yet. Our goal is just as we fall in love more deeply and deeply with Jesus and embrace more and more of His love for us and truly trust him. That when we do, which, I don't know, maybe it's in scripture or somewhere that when you stand in your accused don't have to worry. We because the presence of the living God inside of you will empower you the truth, and you see it lived out in this with Paul.

Kate Boyd:

Yeah, I mean, and you see it a lot in early church literature as well, you know, like that this situation was not foreign to a lot of the people, this was something they expected, they knew to expect. And, you know, they lived their lives preparing for. And so it's interesting to sort of examine it from a time and a place where that is less likely to happen to us, you know? And, yeah. So, yes, I mean, there are absolutely places in the world, yeah, where this is an expectation for them as well. But, you know, from where I'm sitting, I mean, I'm in the bible belt of the United States, like, nobody's gonna call me up for, for what I believe. Now, the way I express that, sometimes we might rub up against each other. Yeah, so but I think there's so much to learn from this sort of, like, patience and calmness, and, you know, peace in these conversations that he has that are ongoing for these two years, while he's just sort of waiting. Josh, how about you?

Josh McDonald:

Yeah. It really is a fascinating, sort of interpersonal dynamic here, this this sort of two year thing, and, I mean, it looks like yeah, it looks like Felix is probably, you know, probably keeps coming back in the hopes that he's going to get a bribe, you know, that, you know, Paul is finally going to give him some money. And they Alright, fine. Let me go, you know, here's some money let me go. But yeah, but the poll just kind of the way it's, it's presented here is just one sentence about, you know, the same time hope that money would be given him by Paul. And for that reason, he used to send for him very often and converse with him. You know, that. Um, I don't know, I sort of envision it as as, you know, a kind of subtle thing where, you know, Felix might Yeah, he might, you know, hold his hand out at some point or, you know, drop little hints here and there about Yeah, but, you know, if, you know, just a little something and you know, and we can be done in in Paul you know, I imagine Paul just sort of ignoring the ignoring it altogether and sort of going on with whatever it is he's discussing. But you know, this idea of of Paul just kind of quietly quietly ignoring the the temptation to take the easy way out. And sort of given to the the corruption of of the official who sim arrested. It just strikes me as a sort of quietly powerful sword I'm looking for witness that you know, that it reminds me to of keep going back to Mark's gospel, but you know, the, the dynamic between Herod and John the Baptist where John the Baptist, of course, was calling him out for you know, for moral thing. And Herod didn't like that very much, but he was still sort of fascinated by this. This guy who stuck to his principles, no matter what But yeah, and, and, you know, actually, yeah, I actually still like to engage with him in conversation like, you know, there's there's something there that, you know, I mean, both these these characters who you know who are not good men. And, you know, they're kind of stuck in their, you know, sort of worldly and worldly morality. But there's something there that keeps them coming back. I like to think in Felix's case, it wasn't just about hoping for a bribe, or that there was something, something in that they kept kind of picking it as soul and yeah, it is, it is interesting to wonder what, what became of him after, after all that.

Kate Boyd:

Yeah, I would love to know what happened to Felix, too. We don't have that here. I'm sure a record, at least of general generalities of his life exists somewhere, but maybe not the spiritual portion. For us. Yeah, I mean, I do think it is interesting to think about, it never sort of, I think it never really occurred to me that Paul might have done the right thing and get out. But that was totally an option available to him. And he could have gone on to preach the gospel, right? If he did. And so there are definite because I know, like, because of places I used to work, there are times when you sort of like, sometimes you do bribe airports to carry like customs, right to let you out to let you into the country with things that they probably wouldn't let you into. Or

Ronne Rock:

there are times there are times that you're on the side of the road, because you've been detained and right a country and the only way to be on detained in that country is to provide funding to the unofficial official who is detained you for no apparent reason.

Kate Boyd:

Yeah. And you just do so that you can move on and do the thing that you're supposed to be doing. And so this totally could have been, which, to me, takes it back to where we see that the Lord has told him who's going to Rome. And so he's just like, I've just got to wait this out. Because I know where I'm supposed to be going next. Which was really interesting to think about when you tie those pieces together. Because, yeah, I mean, I definitely would have been tempted to like, write some letters, fundraise from some of the churches and be like, let me out of here. Let's just get this over with

Ronne Rock:

you the goal? I'm just gonna do it, right. Yes. Really? It's not one person. It's just all of us.

Kate Boyd:

Yeah. Yeah, but that he maintains his integrity in that, but also takes advantage of this opportunity to have these conversations for two years with this person that he may have never met otherwise. And that's a really fascinating, dynamic. Okay, anything else that you wish we would have talked about before we move on to takeaways? Good, all right. Ronnie, how about your meat thought and your we thought, what do you have?

Ronne Rock:

Maybe they're the, maybe they're the same.

Kate Boyd:

They can be the same that happens sometimes.

Ronne Rock:

My meat on and my week is about the power of a rabbit trail overall, is Kate You are so good to challenge us to think about things in a different way, which is very Christ like you. And I appreciate that. You encourage us to not just read words on the page, but to thoughtfully digest them to take time to contemplate, to allow the Lord and the creativity within us that he designed to think about the what ifs and how mites and all of those things. And so, and I think about rabbit trails, right? Because today was all kinds of it was me as like what you think, Oh, it could have been this. It could have been that what about this? And the whole term rabbit trail actually is a very negative term it is this diversion or a tangent or a winding path that will lead to a dead end. And as an author, I had rabbit trails yanked out of my book, my initial manuscripts like this is going nowhere. It's a rabbit trail. We're going to have to edit it. But when it comes to Scripture when it comes to this our pursuit of knowing Christ as greatly as we are known by him, I can't help but think that there's this really divine power and a rabbit trail for me, and for us overall. And that is, it is a moment in Scripture, where you read about Felix, the governor, and you want to say, I need to know more about Felix. And all you do is a quick Google search to find out that his name was actually a Roman name, and that he, they believe historically was a slave who was set free and then elevated. So then all of a sudden, you're like, oh, wait a second. That's not Felix, some man that came up through through the, through some beautiful lineage of like, he was a governor who his father before him was a governor and blah, blah, blah, it is, he is a picture of the gospel. He is a mixture of being set free, and then placed in a beautiful position of authority. He is a literal picture of the hope of the Gospel himself. And so is that a rabbit trail? Or is that a really beautiful moment of contemplation to see where God, even in the finest of details, has woven in story after story after story of redemption, to remind us that he is a God who redeems so it may be that scripture sparks a thought about a specific word or you want to learn more about a person or now you might pray for one person that then sparks the idea for prayer for somebody else or something else. And you're like, oh, my gosh, it's a talent. Why just went off on a tangent? Why they go off on a tangent, only to find out sometimes down the road? That that what you thought was a tangent? was actually the Lord Equipping You for the next step in your journey. It was you thinking it was just a random thought that you thought about a particular person only to find out that no, no, that was the Lord whispering to you in that very moment that that person needed your Colette you to be a part of the collective body in the intercessory power of Jesus. And so I would encourage us to rabbit trail more off. Yeah. And to ask questions about Scripture into ask the what ifs and the what mites and all those things. So there you go. It's my we, I love it. And I us all together.

Kate Boyd:

I love it. You got it from the process itself, because I think that is something we sometimes overlook. And it's really fun, like, and to your point. I think a lot of what made me who I am are the things that I would now look at as that I used to look at as rabbit trails are like wasted moments or time or years. And then they all sort of like converge in this thing. And I'm like, Oh, actually, now I see how that fits together. So rabbit trails are actually very rarely actual dead ends in life. So I love that you brought that to attention. Alright, Josh, you're me. And you're we've,

Josh McDonald:

um, yeah, I think similarly, I'm gonna have to say that they're, they may not be the same, but they're probably interconnected. I think just the what we've already talked quite a bit about here today about how you know this idea of the sort of religious or social group thing versus you know, the power of the individual Yeah, I mean, I think that so maybe the the we thought here would be that Yeah, I think collectively we as Christians as the body of Christ should need sometimes to be more deliberate, more mindful of, of, well, where we're going with our or group thing trends and, you know, is this you know, are we really actually manifesting Christ? Yeah. As a body, or are we sort of falling into more social social trends that might not be? Christ might not be so Christ like, are we? You know, are we ignoring the will of God and, and elevating the traditions of men? You know, as the Gospel says? And then the, you know, the me thought is, yeah, related to that, I suppose is, you know, how, how do I? What do I do with that information? You know, how do I how do I respond as, as a member of the Body of Christ, you know, to either, you know, go along with the larger body or to sort of push against it and and say, you know, maybe this is not the Christlike path, you know, that we should be following. Yeah, and, you know, the challenge of sort of recognizing the differences there.

Kate Boyd:

Yeah. Because sometimes they're subtle, right? They're not always. And I think what's also hard and stuff like that is that sometimes the action could be the same, or, like, look the same on the surface, but then there's also sort of, like, what's behind it, that is shaping you into the thing. And, like, that is something we have to be aware of as believers too. And so that's something that I find challenging, or that I've been, I'll say, this is where we're currently looking for a new church. And we found them that sort of like, act like we would, but our sort of, like, process behind getting there wasn't the same, and which would be kind of fine. But if there's no intentional shaping process behind that, it just sort of showed that, you know, on all the extremes, everyone's formed into a specific end. And, or everyone formed by the end instead of being formed into it. And so it's very, it was just, it's been a really interesting process. And so I do think it is interesting to think about that as you play out. Because sometimes it may look the same on the surface, or, but there are other factors for us that play into how we get to that thing, right. And that's fascinating to me. Okay, so I'm actually going to sort of rewind back to chapter 23. For my me and we, after I've been sort of like writing some things down throughout, and I think so for my me, going back to, sort of that conversation we had about, you know, oaths and, and getting caught up in the groupthink or the heat of the moment, and just sort of, like, being aware of the place that I'm making decisions from, um, you know, and filtering those through to make sure that it's not, like, just ego, or it's not like an emotion of the moment, which is fine. Like, emotions aren't bad. Hear me say emotions aren't bad. They're information, right? But they're not always factual. They're information, though, that can help you that need to be interrogated. And so like working through that, so that you don't just get caught up and you don't just do this thing and commit yourself to stuff that in the end isn't what is good or glorifying. And so I think that's really important. And then I'd say my, we thought, I'm really sort of like, and this was kind of chapter 23, and 24, right, we see, it says, The Lord showed up and told Paul, like, don't worry, you're going to Rome. And then he sits here, and he's waiting out in prison for two years in South Korea. And he's about to walk through a whole lot more in order to get to Rome, just to sit in house prison for even longer. Right. And, and, you know, I'd sort of joked about how like, I don't I wish I had that sort of clarity about what I am doing. But I think at the same level as believers, we we do have a sense right, at least of the cosmic end. have of what our lives together and what our future will be. And that as sort of like a guiding and grounding factor can be really important and can be really helpful and healthy. And so just to sort of like in community be reminded of what we're supposed to be doing, and what we're looking forward to, so that we can shape our actions accordingly. And be guided by, like, we may not have details right now, it's going to look different in all of our lives. But that end point is the same for us. And so to sort of like, have find that patience and courage rooted in the big story that we do know. And I find that really, it's helpful for me, but also be a person within communities, to continue to bring that to people's awareness. You know, when we think about, we don't know what the end is, we actually do and so we can look forward and participate in the story that we have before us now. You know, leading up to you and being a part of the end that we see. And I think that's really, that's a perspective that I need to bring to myself in my community more. Thank you so much for joining us today. If you enjoyed this discussion, I would love it. If you would rate and review the show on your favorite podcast player. You know the drill. This helps more people find the show and learn with us as we talk through Scripture. And then I would love if you came over on social media to talk about what your big takeaways, what your me thought and we thought were from our discussion, or for when you dope into chapters. You can find me on Instagram at Kate boyd.co and on Twitter at D Kate Boyd. And don't forget to check the show notes to find and follow today's contributors. Thank you for joining us.